Category: the Rant Board
Hi,
So, I'm a college student. I am totally blind, not one of those partial low vision dog users who went to dog school just to get away from their mommies for a month. I really do need and use my guide dog. I go to class every day, and have been going to my college for just under two semesters now. Somehow, people just can not get it through their heads that they need to stop playing with my dog as I'm walking, and or sitting in class.
Seriously, this shit really blows my mind.
It's 2011 for christ sake; don't people have even a small modicum of common sense?
And the sad thing is, you can't even blame the students.
The professors are just as bad as are my class mates.
These people, who are in positions of authority, are such bad examples, that it's no wonder the kids have no respect for the fact that I use a working dog.
I also blame this girl who goes to school with me, who has a service dog.
She's in a wheel chair, and she has a dog to pick things up for her.
It is by far the most badly trained service dog I've ever seen.
It's not on a leash, and it runs around and plays around in class all the time.
Furthermore, this girl encourages people to play with her dog, even during class time.
Finally, I went to see the disability service coordinator the other day.
This guy is blind! Totally blind! And what does this dumb fuck do? He gets out of his chair, crawls around on the floor, and yells at my dog till he's literally trying to break away from me because of this guy's trying to play with him.
All of this while he's on his harness.
I mean, god damn! This is a totally blind man, who is a disability services coordinator. This man thinks it's ok to be fucking around with a service dog while the dog is working?
UN...FUCKING...BELIEVABLE
I don't usually post on internet rant forums, but this shit is just driving me insane.
This disability service coordinator has no idea what the fuck he is doing.
Every time he has to go to another building, he calls his office assistants to walk him around.
He has no life skills! absolutely none.
I finally decided to get bookshare and rfbnd memberships this semester so I can get all my own books, because this fucking joker couldn't get his shit together long enough last semester to get me my textbooks on time.
He gave me all my shit at least 2 weeks late, so I had to completely stop using his services.
He was seriously more of a problem for me than a help.
I don't ask for accomodation letters, I talk to all my professors about getting things in electronic format.
I advocate entirely for myself, and wouldn't have it any other way, but, the least this asshole could do is not make blind people look like retards, and stop petting my god damn dog while he's working!
Thanks for listening interwebs,
rant over.
Well I am a partial low vision guide dog user and I did not just go to guide dog school to get away from my mommy for a month.
I can understand you being angry if people are petting and playing with your dog when you don't want them to though.
I also agree that the girl in the wheel chair should keep her dog on a leash during class.
I bet you're not the only person who had the problem with that incompetent clown in the DSS office.
Sorry you're having so much trouble with the people petting your dog, professors and students alike.
Try letting people know that just because this girl allows people to play with her dog, that does not, under any circumstances, give them the right to play with yours.
As someone who doesn't use a dog but finds himself around them alot, it is difficult not to pet them. However out of respect for the owner I follow the rules.
I know a bounty hunter who lost his sight, and when people say 'Does that dog bite?' he answers, 'No, but I do!'
This is a very muscular guy who had a hollowed-out baseball bat filled with concrete from his bounty hunting days. So, I think people kinda believe him ...
My advice to you with the dog situation is to pull out your "tough." Let them know that the dog is working, not a play toy/a regular dog that you buy from a pet store and as for the instructor, could you give me his number so I can teach him...allot of things. :p
I find it hard to see that I'm 15 and have more independence than an adult.
People need to break the habbit of petting strange dogs anyway. Just because it has fur and four legs, does *not* mean you should throw yourself prostrate like a native on the sidewalk in front of it, wriggle, and coo. This is how the young and foolish, as well as the foolish but not so young, get themselves bitten.This is why any young person who is commited to my charge is never petting wild and savage animals roving around, or stroking a unfamiliar dog, unless they have the owner's explicit knowledge and consent.
As someone who is waiting to be matched with her guide dog, I am dreading some of these encounters. On one hand I can be firm and am not afraid of correcting people who would choose to pet the dog while it is working, but I don't want to be so standoffish as to be considered one of those snooty uber-independent blind people...
You do what works for you and your dog. The safety of the guide dog team is more important than how others view you. You can educate people in a polite fashion without sounding like a jerk. It takes some getting used to and there will be days when you'd rather punch people in the face than explainit again. But, it's part of having a dog and you learn to deal with it. With that said, I don't know why independence and not wanting help is seen as a negative by so many blind people. Everyone has preferred ways of getting things done. Going the ultra independent route should not be viewed as snooty. It's just a way of getting through life. It works for some and not others. It is not right or wrong. I wish I had the confidence to be that independent.
Well,
I am one of those super independant blind people, and it's not a bad thing.
It doesn't mean you have to be rude, it just means you do your own thing and don't take shit.
As far as the dog thing goes, I tell people all the time not to pet him.
I try to educate people in the most polite and nonconfrontational way i can, it just frustrates the shit out of me sometimes, hints my rant.
I know that if i encountered a person with a dog, service or otherwise, i certainly wouldn't run up and pet the dog without the owners permission. It's just a common curtasy, doesn't matter whether the dog is working or not.
@Post9 is absolutely right. I have heard the same from people with rescue dogs, a mascot dog, and even police dogs. The mascott's job in part is actuallly to be peteted but there are on and off times.
Anyone should take seriously what Time Traveling Bunny says.
One of the things that I do to let people know the dog is working is be sure the dog is lying down at rest while sitting at a desk and preferably under the desk. While walking or in situations where people love to pet dogs I have my dog sit at my left so he isn't soliciting attention and then inform people that he is working. Yes, I have actually removed people’s hands from my dog while informing them that he is working. I've also told him that I would pet him for them. The trick is not looking too aggressive or angry through this process. Yes, it's annoying but the challenge is you don't want them to think that they are going to get yelled at if they approach a blind person with a dog. Some people need to be educated and others simply ant wants to provoke the dog. It's very important that the dog is kept under complete control and in either a sitting or lying position so that he doesn't look like he's ready to play. I've dealt with all kinds of things like this and have noticed that as long as the dog is focused on you it is possible to just move along and sometimes the dog won't even acknowledge the person. Woof!
Well as for common sense it's been more or less dead for at least the last decade.
A drug sniffing dog came to my school a while back and the officer did give us permission to pet him as long as we let it finish it's job first.
Yeah but that's one thing. It's when you have people like Roxtar's describing that problems start to crop up.
Well as I often say, people are fools.
I hope that your college gets things together and learn not to pet your dog.
Guys, only a decade? I don't think common sense ever existed. Remember, we're talking about human beings here.
Oh I think it existed at one time. But in recent decades it sort of died out. Particularly if, as I've said, a woman can win a law suit against a MacDonald's restaurant after se spills hot coffee between her own legs.
I dare say that her doing so saved humanity. I believe the resulting injurries actually prevented her from having sex, thus no reproduction. However, stupidity has quadroopled in the past 10 or so years.
We are, in a way, raised to be that ignorant, though, to keep us from getting inteligent enough to take over the government.
Careful now Jessica, you're startin to sound like those anti-fluoride, anti-vaccination fundamentalists. Trying not to laugh over here: You're bright, young and intelligent. Far too much so to fall for that stuff, ask your hubby he'll agree with me.
Sometime, is a matter of educating them and bringing the awareness to them. You got to understand, Dogs in general are pretty lovable, and at times, people can't resist to pet them or talk to them, or just being a pain in the budd.
What i usually do is letting them know that the dog is a service dog, no different than a police dog or a custom dog in the sense that they are not touchable and pettable.
Ofcourse, you need to set the boundry and keep the boundry all the time. This might means, your friends, or family, when they with you in public also not allow to talk to your dog.
I'm not sure how pratical this is, but some school produces a kind of FAQ Sheet, or rather an awareness card to give to the public. I'm not sure if you dog guide school will have that kind of stuff, but, if they do, it is a good tool to have it with you, and give it to people that you come across who wanting to pet the dog and stuff.
At the end of the day, it is really, the matter of educating the public, and bringing the awareness to the public about the use of the service dog.
It is hard, but it will be easier ones you done it for a while.
Good luck
Hey, I'm totally blind, too. Before I go on, I want to say that while I can totally understand and support the need and therefore use of a guide dog by someone with mid to low partial vision, as I used to have about that much before my total years starting at age 18 and damn straight a dog would have helped me. But I was young and not many people got dogs in HS in the late 80s. Anyway my problem is with high, *high* partials getting dogs, and I don't think it's so much to escape their parents as it is they have that jealous "uh uh no fair me wanna highly trained doggie so I can get all that cool attention and special treatment too!" Plus these guide dog schools run on numbers for their donations, EG saying they graduated 350 teams in 2011 because half of them have enough sight really only to need a guide at night, and even then, they end up overwalking their dog guides and doing their jobs for them. It is just an overglorified pet for them to get the "awe how cute what's his name" bullshit. I got sick of it and after getting tired of dicking around and being dicked around by programs trained my own dog and yes she is both a guide dog and a wheelchair mobility assistance dog. I do not allow people to pet her especially if they do it without asking, and if my dog can't sit nicely for a quick pat then all pets are off. That butt leaves the ground and game over. I do allow some people to pet depending on so many things, but I do not take it lightly, have been where you are and will likely be there again. Can you get a harness sign from
http://www.handiworks.com
that says "Do Not Pet Me, I'm Working." No they are not always perfect and yes some jack asses will literally have the nerve to read the sign while petting the dog, but my husband is a sighted guy and when we're out if I have the harness sleeve (a cclear plastic zipper pouch that fits over the handle and the plastic 3X5 card (usually bright yellow with bold black or red lettering) really is a great deterent, especially from parents who let their kids run loose wherever but my husband will tell me how many ppl see the sign and grab their kid(s) and that would by why I suddenly hear peels of irate screaming from the little darlings. BTW, if I'm mistaken the link might be:
http://www.handyworks.com
with a Y instead of an I and the harness sleeve is nice. It has a stretchy vinal backing and you can fit keys, a cell phone and maybe a small bag of biscuits or kibble for carrying light. The sign card thingie fits in front of that, in its own separate compartment, and this is what ppl see. The sleeve is around $20 and the insert signage about $8 if memory serves but damn, I can't tell you how many times that thing paid for itself over and over again. Hey...we're gonna be surrounded by utter idiots and ignorant, inconsiderate fuckers regardless of where we are, what we do and whether or not we have a guide dog. Mine is a shepherd, and when asked "Does that dog bite" I calmly turn to the person's general direction and say, "Why do you need to know that about *MY* service dog?" It's a personal pet peve of mine when people say "that dog" like they are too stupid to know what a possessive pronoun like *your* is. Sloppy, lazy, illbred oafs but thankfully there are always exceptions to every rule, and the people who are considerate, intelligent and ask the smart questions do exist, and would help if asked. But asking if that dog bites and my answering their dumb question with a suspicious one of my own so far has a 100% record of shutting their stupid ass up lol. Best of luck to you and just know this is always worst when you are a newer handler or with a new dog. Unfortunately it's our place to educate, and the less emotion and more of an impact that can be made with the least amount of words on our part is best. Trust me, they aren't expecting you to come out with a snarky, intelligent but swiftly affective remark as to why they may not engage your dog by touching talking to or attempting eye contact with him while he's in harness. And I'm telling you...asking them to "please stop trying to engage my dog" works 98% of the time and this also gives people a chance to get a clue that blind people are not stupid and our property is not for them to fondle just because they think we're too blind or stupid to know. Go out there and kick some ass...you seem extremely intelligent. I hope this helps.
Best,
CJ and Ellie (Guide/Assistance Dog)
Leo, ironically, my hubby and I had the very conversation I mentioned in my last post, and we're in agreement there. You know what they say: Opinions are like asseholes. Everyone has one.
and now, back to the topic at hand...
I agree with the previous poster completely, though it really is sad that someone whose job is to work with students with disabilities is setting an example like this. having said that, there's really nothing you can do besides educate. some people will be stubborn, but hey, if nothing else, they will help you better appreciate the people who are receptive.
Don't worry Jess, I am in absolute agreemint. Just think of what would happen if we weren't kept ignorant?
I completely agree with the above. I also do not give out my dog's name as, why do they want it? To start calling your dog. I never allow others to pet my dog. The only time I allow someone to touch my dog is, if it's the vet or, if it's another blind person and they ask if they can see it. Seeing the dog for a blind person is not petting and playing with it. Also, if someone does succeed in distracting the dog, i give a firm correction with a firm no. That always makes them feel foolish as, it's their fault your dog is getting punished. And, as stated above, it's important to keep your dog completely under control and focused on you. I also so much agree that folks should teach their children not to grab at strange dogs. How stupid is that? A great way to get bitten I say.
Good on ya, Dana, and welcome to the boards!
It goes back to what I said earlier - people seem to loose all sense of propriety around furry critters and babies. But it would just take one dumb kid getting bit while playing with a harnessed guide dog for parents to get all up in arms over the whole incident.
Yup and then you get blamed. It's sick.
Yup. I've already decided that if I ever do get a guide dog he or she will have a sign attached to the harness where anyone watching should be able to see it, saying flat out Don't pet me. I'm busy.
It's a shame you even have to think about doing such a thing.
Thanks for all the soliderity peoples. It's nice to know that there are some folks out there who have a little common sense.
Some school do that, but i'm not sure if i agree on it though. The fact is, it won't stop people wanting to pet regardless. you think they don't know service dogs not allow to pet? most of them do know, but that doesn't mean they will try.
attaching such sign to me, means you are unfriendly, unsocial, and stuff.
Of course, that particular dogs from that particular school do have behaviour problems as a general rules anyway, so, i don't see any different with or without the sign.
It also comes to the awareness of the guidedog owner, and the dog itself. Some dogs, do go and seek troubles for themselves.
As far as names ggo, i usually give out one of the names that i made it up, if i really feel like answering whoever. if not, i usually just said sorry, she's a guidedog, and we are working, if you want to know more, call this number or go on this website, thank them, and walk away.
remember, whatever you do, you are also some sort of ambassidor for the dog guide school.
Yeah, I have a sign. It doesn't work. All people see is a dog. They don't see me. They don't see the harness. And they sure as hell don't see the sign. They see a dog and go bat shit crazy like it's the first dog they've ever seen. All common ssense flies out the window. And then there are the geniuses who see the sign and say "Oh, I know I'm not supposed to pet the dog but..." while petting the dog. Apparently they believe the sign is there for everyone but them. The only reason I even keep the sign on the harness is because it's also a zipper pouch and I like to carry my keys and phone there.
People only think "omg a furry thing. How cute." People just don't think.
A couple thoughts here:
first off, my dog really doesn't have behavior problems. The only time he really goes nuts over people is when they bend down and pet him. Usually he's very good about leaving people alone, but he is after all a dog. If people pet him, he gets excited. That's just how it is.
Second of all, I have a harness sign. That said, I don't use it.
I have a voice, and I'm perfectly capable of telling people to leave him alone without putting a sign on him. I personally feel that the harness sign is super tacky, and there's no way I'd be caught dead with a big I'm blind pity me sign strapped on my dog.
Third, I am not an embasador for my dog school. This is a belief that I don't really understand. After all, just because you drive a prias, it doesn't mean you're all the sudden an embasador for toyota.
By that same logic, there's no other peace of property you own, be it a car, a laptop, your phone, or whatever, that you have to put a sign on just so people will leave it alone.
I have my rights, and I absolutely will not put a sign on my dog, or rep my dog school like it's some kind of cause. It's not my favorite baseball team, it's a place where I went to receive my dog.
Do you go out and tell everybody where you took driver's ed every time you go on a road trip? no.
People may consider it a bad atitude, but it's not my soul mission in life to educate an ignorant public. I walk out my front door every morning so I can do the things I need to do to be a successful and productive citizen, not to spend all my time pandering to a bunch of idiots who aren't smart enough to keep their hands off a strange dog.
Equality doesn't mean that I should have to take the time out of my day to answer questions about my mode of transportation, or my blindness in general.
If people have questions, they can look on wikipedia and find out the answers like everybody else.
I don't go around asking drivers what it's like to own a car. I also don't go and put my hands all over people's cars, bikes, what have you.
I go out into the world to do the things I need and want to do. Sorry, but that doesn't include justifying my existence to total strangers. fuck em.
Well said to the last poster. This ambassador foolishness is just that, foolishness. At the end of the day if you paid the bills, paid your taxes, kept the kiddos outa trouble and in school, you done good, in my opinion.
Claps extra loudly for Roxstar! I have heard that crap about being an ambassador for the blind and the school where I got my dog. Can I say, No Way! It's unfortunate that loads of blind folks have doggies just for that reason, to be a doggie, not a guide. To grab attention from the sighted world as, they think this will make them accepted. Um, not! It makes them look like a loser with a cute doggie. Lol. I'd rather look like a confident woman busily on my way just like anybody else. I am not rude but, I can be very abrupt. If someone asks "can I pet the dog?" I simply say "no, the dog is working but, thanks for asking." If someone asks me "what's the doggie's name?" I simply say "I'm sorry, I don't give out my dog's name, it's a working dog." However, if someone does grab for the dog without asking then I will grab them very very firmly and state "Don't touch the dog." Most of the schools are putting out really cutesy dogs that are fluffy and loveable looking. They are using eye contact to train the dogs, they are using food and treats as rewards, they are encouraging the dog to love attention, they are telling their graduates to allow folks to pet the dog. I say, not for me or my dog. All you are doing is encouraging bad and dangerous behavior. So, your dog just forgets to stop for that flight of stairs because he's seeking attention from a stranger...and then you fall down the stairs, and break your neck. Not my dog! You are depending upon this dog for your life's safety in many cases, it's not a toy. I don't care if it's the cutest fluffiest golden retriever, it can behave like a professional, after all, that's what it is isn't it?
is not so much about you being the ambassidor, is about the dog. some school can train good well behave dog, and some just can't. it could be deal to the dogs, trainers, and the users. but well train dog are not likely to get distract than anything.
i'm thankful i don't have such harness about "do not touch the dog" or something like that, i'm capable to speak up if someone wanting to, or intent to touch my dog.
and seriously, how many of the people bother to read the sign anyway? maybe 1 out of 50 if you are lucky?
they see the dog as the cutest thing they ever come across, and disregard the respect for the owner/user.
Sometime, i wish to tell this guys, "hey, you got a baby there, can i carry him/her while you have my dog?"
Yes, what a twist. Let's go up to the next baby we see and just pick it up. Oh you'd get a horrible reaction.
Wow. I've never heard anything about guide dog schools either deliberately breeding cute, fluffy dogs or encouraging strangers to pet their dogs and certainly none of the schools I'm considering would stand for that. As far as those who say they know they're not supposed to pet the dog even as they do so, I'd just say then please don't and walk on. And if they thought I was rude then so be it. It'd be their fault after all for geting in my way, not mine.
yup. Now if the dog is off harnace then by all means pet it.
Well yeah. Obviously I wouldn't leave the harness on if I knew I was going to be sitting in a college class, let's say, for an hour or more. In that situation I'd be more likely to allow one or two people to pet my dog just so long as they understood that once the harness went back on they would have to stop. I have a close friend who went to GDB about four years ago and she talks about her dog a lot on Facebook and how the sighted world interacts with the two of them. And I see myself handling these situations more or less the same way she does, and this is a woman with a good head on her shoulders as far as I'm concerned. Because quite frankly I'd care more about keeping my dog and I safe than whether or not a few sighted folks thought I was rude for not letting them pet him just whenever.
People do do that sort of crazy stuff with babies also, there's the cheek-pinching strangers. Babies don't want their cheeks pinched.
People have no abilities to listen to their fathers when they were told to admire at a distance.
I've had my cheeks pinched at the age of 6 and let me tell you it was not pleasant.
I don't imagine it would be.
Nobody wants that shit.
I don't take my dog off the harness while i'm in class.
I say establish boundaries and go with it; plus, I want him ready to go when it's time to leave the class. No fumbling around with the harness, it's get up and go time.
I have places to be, and the dog is supposed to speed me up, not slow me down.
Hmmm good point.
Well, believe me or not but, it's true, nearly all schools encourage you to allow strangers to pet the dog. Just stop what you are doing, have your dog sit and let strangers fondle the dog. No way! I am not out there to be a petting zoo. I am not on my way down the sidewalk to just keep stopping so that people can pet the dog. And, no matter what anybody says, that kind of behavior will make your dog distracted by the attention of strangers. Also, i never take the harness off of my dog in public. Lol, what a crazy idea. The dog lies quietly beside me until it's time to go and, when I stand up i take the harness and head off on my way. I guess I just don't get it. Why would you even want strangers playing with your dog? Is it because you think they will turn their attention to you? Is it because you are lonely and just want to be noticed? What? I mean, I just want to be on my way like anybody else. I know that folks aren't even seeing me as a human being, all they see is a doggie with a poor blind person at the end of the leash. Do you really think that, by letting your dog be a toy for others to pet that you are helping the guide dog users of the world? Sorry, again, I just don't get it.
amen!
I totally agree with you.
I don't take my dog off the harness, and I surely don't let people play with him in public.
Our entire society just sees a person with a guide dog as a stupid blind fuck, so I'm not going to let them get there shitty little amusement from playing with my dog.
I'm not lonely for their attention, and I don't think if somebody comes up to me talking to my dog in a winy high pitched voice that they're gonna all of a sudden direct their stupidity back on me just to make me feel better cause I'm a sorry blind sap and I can't even wipe my own ass without help.
They can all bite my balls. I work fucking hard, matter of fact, I work harder than most of those other idiots who are trying to pet my dog.
BLAH!
That's odd. Because I've talked to a lot of different schools over the years and I've never, and I mean absolutely never, heard that from any of them. In fact just the opposite.
I would have to agree. While I never plan on getting a guide dog, I have never heard of schools encouraging you to let everyone pet your dog. In fact, that's usually grounds for having the dog taken away from you because they think you're unfit to have a dog at all.
Yeah. Letting the occasional someone pet your dog is just fine, particularly if you're not going to be on the move right away. But I've absolutely never heard a guide dog school rep say let just anyone pet your dog just whenever. In fact it's just as you say. If anything they've said exactly what you said, that that could be grounds for having the dog taken away from you. And even if that didn't happen you could undo their training. That's something I've heard since I was fourteen, when I had my first encounter with a guide dog. And an even bigger no-no is letting people feed your dog, wich I have heard of on occasion. I even heard one case where a guy was paired with a guide dog and he praised the dog for growling at someone who tried to pet him. And when the school called him out on it he said flat out that he wanted an aggressive guide dog.
Well, okay, that is a bit shitty to train the dog to growl.
Like I said, the folks at the school weren't at all happy. As I recall he got kicked out of class for it.
I'm sure he did.
If I'm not mistaken it was a close friend of mine who told me the story. I think the guy was from Brazil or Argentina or someplace, not that that really matters. I think she mentioned that part as an afterthought. But yeah, he got caught praising his dog for growling at a stranger and when he told the instructor why he was doing that she pretty much popped a gasket. Then there's someone like my aunt who believes guide dogs are never, under any circumstances, supposed to be allowed to have access to toys. I feel sorry for the dogs she did puppy raising for LOL.
I will bet that is that old mentality.
Damn! That must be annoying. I don't have a guide dog, but still...can sympathize.
@CJ, I think it's pretty awesome that you trained your own dog. How'd you go about doing that, exactly? I'm curious, as I've never actually known a person who's done it. Though I've heard of people who have.
Dogs are smart. My dad had a dog that automatically stopped at the cross walk when I took her out. Now how did that happen? That same time she yanked me out of the way of a car that was to quiet for me to here.
1. As stated by others, having some sight does not make someone any more or less deserving of a guide dog than you. Yes, there are partials, who are jerks and don't really need guide dogs and get them anyway for glorified pets, but there are totally blind people who get them for that reason as well, and there are high partials who genuinely need guide dogs who deserve them and utalize them well. I know someone with 2020 vision with a guide dog, but her field of vision is about 20degrees. I know someone who has 2020 vision or close to, but her sight comes and goes, in a second her sight can completely cut out, without warning, and this can happen multiple times a day. She works a guide dog, with her eyes closed, to avoid second guessing her dog, and yes, she has had sight cut out suddenly during travel,once even during a street crossing, so she has a very real need as well. I was a high partial as a child, a moderate partial when I got my first guide dog and I am now a total, and my dogs were needed and fully utalized then and now.
2. Talk to the wheelchair user. It is not ok to call a wheelchair user a person in a wheelchair, or wheelchairbound. As someone with a disability, you should be aware of this. I wasn't super sensative to this until I was in my teens, but it is something you should know. That being said, this does not midigate her irrisponsibility. You should talk to her and start a dialogue about proper service dog handling, be nice, at first, maybe she didn't have good instruction from her service dog school, and if she is not hearing you, then get tougher. Also, if it doesn't improve, report her to her school. Report her to university police as a dog who is creating a neusince. Service dog or not, if it is causing problems it can legally be banned from campus, and running loose with the potential to distract your working dog deffinitly qualifies as illegal behavior. Report her to the office for students with disabilities. That moron won't do anything, most likely, but a paper trail can be begun. Lodge complaints against her with student life or residents life as well. Just an FYI, being off-leash in and of it's self is not unlawful. Assistance dogs do sometimes need to be offleash to do their job, but the visiting and wandering off is unlawful.
3. You need to tell all of your professors, in writing not to touch your dogs again, without your permission, or to talk to them or try and engage them in any way. Keep a reccord of this. Have a friend with an iPhone or other smart phone camera catch your professors in the act if they continue, and lodge formal complaints against them with the college. Bring a tape recorder with you, preferably a camera you can use, do you have an iPhone? Visit with the moron who works in the office for students with disabilities and catch him baiting your dog. Send this to the dean, no bring it there yourself, also contact your school for help. It might take a trainer or an administrater there talking to someone at your college, with you, of course, not on your behalf.
5. Lastly, you mentioned he was iniffecent at getting your textbooks. I'm sorry, but that's your job. If you didn't have adiquit services in highschool teaching you how to do that, then I'm sorry for that situation, but that is always, and has always been your responsibility. My mom is blind and she and my TVIs were very clear that it was my job to obtain books. In highschool I even obtained my own books, translated documents and embossed them and did other tasks like that on my own. I faught to get propper accomidations on my SAT exams, with no help from the district, so, while I applaud your desire to work directly with your professors, which is great, getting your own textbooks is also your responsibility.
Trust me, I'm on your side. I just want to make sure you have the most complete perspective and the most accurate information in this matter.
Wow. I bet that would be scary.
Not defending anyone, but I am sighted, and before I landed on this forum and read a few posts about this, I had no idea that it would be a problem to pet a guide dog. I never did, I just don't pet people's dog as a rule. But I never thought I should not either.
No one ever told me!
Usually, petting one's dog is considered like a nice way to bridge two persons and might lead to a friendly conversation. For most people, it is akin as lighting one's cigaret or something of the sort. A nice gesture.
Now, arguably, if I had had the urge to pet a guide dog, I might have noticed that the dog's movements might make its owner uncomfortable, but I might as well have been oblivious to that. I can't know.
I realize for you it seems bloody obvious, but well, it wasn't that obvious to me.
So just to say, there is an awareness and education problem.
Well, you can't help what you don't know, and that took courage to speak up about it.
The issue is when people pet without bothering to ask permission first. Then they get bent out of shape when the handler calls them out for it, even if said handler is as polite and reasonable as possible about it. Oftentimes you'll get the I know I shouldn't pet your dog line, all while they're busy petting. They don't seem to realize that not onl is it rude to just start petting a working animal like that bt inthe case of a guide dog it can actually put both members of the team in danger. If the dog's distracted at the moment when you start to cross a street, well I believe they call that road pizza.
Some of the above stories are why I continue to say I'll never get a guide dog. I know there are people who don't know, and I do congratulate the sighted poster who spoke on this, but there are many, many sighted people who should know better and ignore this fact. I also (and this is a topic for some other posting) think there are many sighted people who can't take no of any kind for an answer. No grabbing me when I'm crossing a street, no thinking that just because you're sighted, you always know better than I about what's best for me, and no touching me without my permission when I'm minding my own business. Unfortunately I tend to be one of those uber-independent blind people, and one of the issues I've had over the years is that I get into trouble for asserting myself. It's automatically seen as impolite or the stereotypical bitter blind person or whatever. But as I said, these are probably issues for another discussion.
I know that someone interfering with a guide dog is probably a lot worse and more irritating than when people grab the cane, but oh lord do they ever like to grab the cane! When they guide you, they grab it so that you have absolutely no feedback any longer. They even do it without warning, as though directing the cane is somehow a way to direct you, as well. Even when you tell them "let go of the cane, please" they still do it. So I guess we cane users can sort of share the misery with guide dog users on this subject at least.
How true is that! UGH! Why do people think that grabbing the cane is acceptable just because we're blind? I mean, you wouldn't grab a sighted person's face and covering their eyes as they're traveling across a busy street... then why do people think that our canes are propellers?
UGH!
kate
They should make stunn baton canes.
yeah, it's a cane, not a leash.
Thanks to the sighted person who spoke up as well. I hadn't really ever thought of it in that way.
You say more education is needed. What do you think would be most helpful in getting the message out?
My impression is that we are to always assume that sighted people mean well, no matter how poorly the job is done or how unnecessary the help is, and any attempt to assert any smidgelet of power is a great offense because they must always have the power in any situation dealing with blind people just like the good lawd in heaven planned it. As a blind person, you are allowed only two emotions and no more. Extreme sorrow for not having working eyes, and gratefulness for anyone even daring to speak to you, even if they call you every name in the book and beat you senseless. Remember, good intentions excuse all behaviors, and besides, the last thing a sighted person wants is to have a mere blind person get all uppity on them and dare to tell the sighted person they're doing it wrong. Who cares if I'm doing it wrong, this means I have more of a chance to go to heaven, don't you uppity blind fucks understand what's at stake? It's my afterlife, god dammit! You ungrateful bitches just spat in the face of my great charity, my boundless but limitted and begrudging kindness, I'm trying to be fucking nice, you stupid blind piece of shit, you're supposed to just know this with your fucking magic alien superpowers! Now go play the fucking piano and leave me the fuck alone! I'll never help another blind person again if they're all like you!
And yes, I was being satirical, but to make a point.
Lol, that was funny!!! But sadly true. I have let one person use the cane as sort of a leash, but notice I said LET, and it was my cousin. You grab it when I don't want you to, and I'll tell you in no certain terms: "PUT THAT DOWN!" No please or thank-yous; some people deserve to be roared at.
It's true.
I had a lady walk up to me just today and start petting my dog.
She said, as she bent down to pet him, "I know I shouldn't be doing this, but he's just so cute."
I sighed, and did nothing.
Usually, I raise hell, but today I just didn't have the energy.
This lady is in one of my college classes, and I thought to myself, God damn. If I bitch this chick out today, I'm gonna be getting the stink eye from her for the rest of the year... not to mension she's gonna complain, loudly, every class about what an ungrateful little shit I am.
This all happened after the incident today when I was getting my student id picture taken.
A group of us walked down to the computer lab with a professor to have the pictures taken.
I sat down on the stool, and the woman yells across the room to the professor, "hey, how do I get this guy to look at the camera?"
I told her that she could speak to me, as I was blind, not mute. An awkward silence ensued.
Some times I just get so fucking warn down.
I think the situation is interesting and kind of unique. How many things can a person do that are not illegal where they say they know they are not allowed to do it and yet they are going to go ahead and do it. I also am failing to understand the idea that if I as a blind person disallow a person from doing something they and I know they are not supposed to do, they are not in the wrong for wanting to do something they aren't supposed to do, I'm in the wrong for disallowing them to do the thing they are not supposed to do and it stems from some personality defect or some lack of gratefulness for something I didn't know I was supposed to be grateful for. I signed a social contract I didn't sign?
That's one of the reasons I'm hesitant about getting a guide dog. I don't think I'd be able to maintain a courteous tone with too many people just coming up and petting my dog.
I don't think it's just guide dogs: my sister-in-law gets the stink eye from people who she chides from trying to pet her professional dog, and I've seen people get bitchy when told to lay off handling rescue dogs as well.
I wonder if it's mainly whites who do it, seeing as whites seems to have a real primitive worshipful adoration of dogs that borders something you might see in a National Geographic magazine with some natives and statues.
Anyway I see no reason why the blind should act any differently than rescue dog handlers act in this matter. Public safety is paramount importance here and clearly what you are all talking about is a public safety hazard. Anyone who would put some sort of blind reputation or education above public safety is a hapless fool and nothing more.
So if Leo is right, there is a certain sort of dog lover who has, from what I observe, a certain sense of entitlement or privilege as regards any dog, guide or otherwise. Dare I play those cards?
dog zellits!
Canine fanatics!
once, i was crossing a major busy street downtown Minneapolis with my guide dog. somebody came running up to me in the middle of the street yelling that they were going to free my dog from slavery and tried taking the harness off. i yelled; get your hands off my fucking dog! i made it to the other side of the street with the belly strap of the harness dangling loose.
luckily, i never let folks touch my dog so she completely ignored the stranger. now, even if i had let folks mess with the dog a few times, that could have made the difference. this was a major intersection with loads of traffic in a big city.
we, as blind folks, must remain strong. unfortunately that one time you let the lady in your class pet the doggy, then she thinks it's ok to do it tomorrow. and, the next day, and the next day. and, then others see her doing it so, they do it too. next thing you either have to bitch them all out or just give up and end up with a dog that could very possibly screw up badly in a tricky situation such as i showed above.
we need to stand up for ourselves. be firm, be assertive, and, yes, on occasion, be bitchy!
The person who tried to turn your dog loose was probably from PETA. PETA people are at least as dangerous as the pro-life fundamentalist bombers. Perhaps even moreso, because they paint themselves as an advocacy group opposing the cruelty to animals. And who doesn't want to see the life and times of fluffy bunnies improved?
But they are terrorists pure and simple, in the same way as the abortion clinic bombers are terrorists.
A terrorist is someone who will enact violence against a target group to incite fear (even if it's called "education") to perspective members and the community at large.
PETA members have done such things as burning buildings that housed animals, killing pets, throwing acid in the faces of people wearing farm-raised fur and many many other things.
If that happens to you again, you should first get to a safe place and second, report it. Many PETA members are prepared for violence, again, the parallels with the prolife movement in the United States or the Jihadist movement in the middle east is compelling.
I think your situation was very serious because you were in effect immobilized. I have no doubt this PETA person knew exactly what they were doing, and the danger they put you in in the middle of the street.
I don't say this to make you panic, but to make you aware. Since we're blind we can't identify the colors of clothes and hair, and so by now you can probably not report it. However, in the future see if you can get a witness, someone nearby to corroborate your situation. Again, get to a safe place and call your local police station, especially call them if you have a witness who can identify the individual in question.
This goes beyond someone being petulant.
Okay I will admit that I once felt that guide dogs were slaves. I was never an animal rights activist or anything, that's just how I felt. However, I never would have tried to set it free or whatever that nutcase tried to do.
Freeing the dog from slavery? That sounds like typical PETA nonsense. The irony is that most of them probably keep dogs chained up in teir backyards and would sooner let their animals suffer slow and painful deaths from terminal illness than let avet euthenize them and put an end to their suffering.
wow. I'd have gone to jail, because I don't think I'd have been able to stop myself from hitting that person.
Petting the dog is bad enough, but I'd never have been able to keep my cool in that situation.
I have to lecture people every day I walk down the street, which is a pain, because I'm not the kind of person who enjoys or wants to have to confront people. But, wow. I'd have lost it.
well, frankly i was so totally shocked, i couldn't really believe what was happening. then, i was afraid i'd get stuck in traffic. this was several years ago. if it happened now, you bet, i'd whip out my Iphone and call the cops. i don't know what they could do though. there were loads of other folks around but, you know how folks are, they just move along not caring overly much about what goes on around them.
my point of the story was that, if my dog would have been one of those that is distracted by other people, i could have been put into even more danger. good thing she totally ignored the person. kept right on going even while that idiot was undoing her harness.
there are sure loads of crazies out there that's for sure.
This is why I'm sticking with canes. When I'm walking somewhere, I mind my own business and I expect the same of others.
So yeah, I get a lot of questions and distracting people who want to touch my dog too, but the trade off is so worth it. I hated using a cane. And I definitely got worse treatment with a cane. With a guide dog, people are more likely to accept me, I feel. Perhaps that is an inaccurate assessment, but that has just been my experience. Not to mention, high school with a cane was shit... Kids do some stupid shit. That's not to say high school with a guide dog is any easier; I wouldn't know. However, college with a guide dog is a million zillion times better than high school with a cane. And having that beautiful bond is indescribable, so incredible; I wouldn't trade it for the world.
I only let women touch my dog. tee hee.
And if they ask your dog's name, it's SnatchMagnet!
I have no problem bitching people out for touching my dog. I glare at people when they make those stupid smacking noises with their lips, even though my dog never responds to that. It's still annoying. I have physically removed peoples hands from my dog. And nine times out of ten, if people want to pet my dog, the answer is no. I don't usually let people pet my dog unless I offer.
I don't think I get worse treatment with a cane. Most of the time I go about my business and people mind theirs. I think, though, that wether you use a dog or a cane, your blindness, standing by itself, makes you more of a magnet for people who like to focus on the unusual, for whatever reason. I submit also that a dog can make you a little more vulnerable to business owners who don't like them even though they don't have a legal leg to stand on when it comes to barring you from restaurants and other facilities because you use one. And I'll live without the supposed bond, thanks just the same.
I echo what Johndy said, in his last post.
I don't feel I get treated worse with a cane, at all, and I'm quite happy living without this "bond" a guide dog supposedly provides, which I prefer to get from fellow humans, anyway.
Which it's been two years since I bonded with a fellow human (smile). I'm afraid I'm getting rusty.
Hi,
Just out of curiosity,
What college do you attend?
When I used to have my dog guide, even though it had a sign, people would offer to pet it constantly. More than that, family members always talked to my dog, even though I told them not to.
Some people just don't listen. And as for the sign the fastest way Iknow of to get someone to do something is to tell them not to do it. Maybe if I ever have kids I'll tell them not to clean their rooms so that then they will LOL.
Yes, let them know that you are quite disappointed in cleanliness and say that you will harshly punish them if they clean. Tell your daughter not to bring nice smelling yung men around. Your kids will be the most clean kids around! lol.
ROFL!
Most people are pretty awesome about not petting my dog guide; almost everyone will ask if they can
If you want to use a guide dog as your means of mobility, and you are a person that likes to keep to themselves, it will probably be extremely annoying. There is a kid that goes to my college, (probably shouldn't refer to him as a kid as we are adults here.) He has a guide dog. Every time that dog is out with him, he is constantly being confronted by people and asked questions about the dog. Either that, or you have some running away because they are petrified of big dogs. I haven't gotten that much attention being a cane user, and I am perfectly ok with that. I never liked being the center of attention. With that said, there isn't a way of completely avoiding being noticed or asked questions. People are curious. They want to know about blindness. How you do things, what Braille is like, etc.
I understand why dog guide users are irritated when they are ignored and people continue to pet a dog even after they were asked to stop. This is the reason why I prefer not to get a dog. It's not that I don't want to educate people, and it's not that I don't want to be social. I don't take well to people not listening to my instructions, and I feel as though I have more control when I have a cane. You have some control with a dog, but you still have to rely on the dog because the dog operates itself, where you are the one operating the cane.
I completely disagree. If there's anything that training with a dog guide this past month has taught me, it's this: your dog guide does have some ability to make decisions, and indeed will need to do so, but at the end of the day YOU are the one in control. I find cane travel clunky and awkward at best, and people actually tend to leave me alone more with a dog than with a cane...
Kate
101 guiding Dalmatians!!!
YAYE..........
and the 101 post
sorry couldn't resist,
Keep going on with the topic...
Kate, I completely agree about the fact that you are the one in control, not the dog; I've never handled a guide myself but Ive witnessed other handlers in action and have done a little research on the subject. However, I disagree to an extent about how cane travel is at best awkward and clunky. If you don't know where in hell you're going, or if you're unfortunate enough to run into some unforeseen obstacle, like construction for instance, yeah it's awkward as hell. But in general, when I know the route at least passingly well (as even a guide dog handler must do) I consider myself a fairly efficient cane traveler. Do I bump my cane off things sometimes? Sure. But I don't go banging down the street, bashing into things, overturning pedestrians and bouncing off fences, either. So I think that while the fluidity of guide dog travel is superior to the amount of grace you can achieve with a cane, I wouldn't call cane travel clunky at best. More like at worst. Hell, we could even argue that guide dog travel, while smooth and fluid, is a bit more cumbersome. I know of someone who switched back to the cane after a few years with a dog partially because she was sick of packing the extra stuff around, and just wanted to get up and take herself somewhere without being led.
I disagree that guide dog travel is superior/more fluid than traveling with a cane. as we've seen, though, that depends who you ask.
Meglet and Chelsea,
Thanks for respectfully disagreeing with me. LOL
I simply find that, for me personally, guide dog travel is more fluid and much less awkward. Take downtown in my city for an example: almost all sidewalks have poles or trees in the middle of them. It is very easy to overcompensate with a cane, only to find yourself back doing battle with said poles/trees/patio tables from cafes and restaurants.
Just a personal preference...
Kate
Actually, Chelsea, we mostly agree; I don't and probably never will believe that dog travel is superior to cane travel or vice versa; however, in terms of fluidity alone, guide dog handlers simply get around better than we can with canes. They go around things, bypass obstacles, etc. You don't bump into as many people, you don't collide with stuff to know it's there. And while cane travel can really be very fluid, it's not going to be as fluid as dog travel. That dog can see, so it is precise in its movements. It will go straight across a street; it will weave around poles and chairs and signs; it will head directly for a sidewalk in an open space, and it won't bump into anything, at least the majority of the time.
Hi,
As some people have seen on other threads, I am one of those individuals who is more introverted and has little appreciation for being the center of attention. I still have a guide dog though, because the benefits of a guide dog as a mobility aid outweigh those of a cane. If I don't want to deal with people, I just ignore them. It is not hard, and they do go away. If people ask to pet my dog if he's working, the answer is almost always a quick: "no," and I sometimes throw an explanation in there. A few people have also asked to feed my dog. I usually just respond to this question with a death glare, or something really snappy.
People get the message.
I will say that I don't think there has been a difference in how people treat me. I have always carried myself confidently, unless I had no fuckin' clue where I was going, which happens with a cane or a dog. Some people want to share dog stories, and depending on the moment and setting, I can be fine with that. People also ask my dog's name constantly. Ignore, ignore, ignore, or just tell 'em I don't disclose it. I love it.
As for controlling the dog, you do have control most of the time, but sometimes, the dog has to make executive decisions. Examples of this would be traffic checks, finding ways around construction sites/cones, and finding ways around cars. All this summer, my golden guy and I encountered construction all over the city. Anything from cones, to blocked off sidewalks, to missing sidewalks, to gaping holes in the street, we encountered it. He did a beautiful job showing these things to me, and then finding ways around them, even if it meant turning around and continuing in a different direction. Now, I can sometimes control the specifics of my dog's executive decisions, but most of the time, he knows exactly what he's doing and where we're going, so I let him do his job.
As for the "supposed bond" between handler and dog, it is not supposed, the bond is very real and visible in the way dog and handler interact. Just because it is something you choose not to have with a guide dog does not mean such a bond does not exist, or is inferior. Also, a bond with a guide dog, or any dog or pet for that matter, cannot be replaced by or substituted for by relationships with people. Dogs do not perceive and understand things the same way people do, and dogs show affection and respect very differently than people do. Many dogs pick up on their handlers' feelings and body language, respect their handlers, value the love, attention, and lives of their handlers, and are eager to please them. Please don't undermine the value and strength of such a relationship just because it is something you do not want for yourself.
I PREFER TRAVEL WITH A DOG, THOUGH I DO SOMETIMES FIND IT JUST EASIER TO TAKE A CANE, BE ALONE, AND HAVE MORE CONTACT WITH SURROUNDINGS. THERE'S VALUE IN THAT, TOO.
BUT I WALK VERY QUICKLY, AND MOST OF THE TIME CAN'T MOVE THE CANE FAST ENOUGH TO MAKE IT USEFUL. I GET EASILY ANNOYED WITH THE CANE GETTING STUCK BENEATH CARS (PARKED CARS! LOL) AND SO ON; I JUST DON'T FEEL AT ALL GRACEFUL, WITH A STICK, NOT TO MENTION YOU AREN'T AS OFTEN ADMONISHED, USELESSLY, TO "WATCH OUT!" WHEN YOU HAVE A DOG!
SO FOR ME, CANE TRAVEL IS CLUNKY AND NOT VERY EFFICIENT, THOUGH I CAN DO IT, AND USED A CANE FOR TWO YEARS, BETWEEN DOGS.
CERTAINLY CAN RELATE TO THE FRUSTRATION OTHERS EXPRESSED HERE, ABOUT PEOPLE INTERACTING WITH THE PUP! I TRY TO BE POLITE ABOUT IT, BUT SOME DAYS YOU JUST AREN'T IN THE MOOD, AND THIS IS JUST AN EXTENSION OF SIGHTED PEOPLE THINKING THAT YOU ARE A CURIOSITY, AND THINKING THEY CAN ASK YOU ANY RIDICULOUS QUESTION THAT A FEW SECONDS' THOUGHT AND COMMONSENSE WOULD HAVE TOLD THEM IS INAPPROPRIATE. I GET SO DAMNED ANGRY, WHEN PEOPLE MAKE THAT KISSY-LIP-SMACKING SOUND TO MY DOG, AND ALL THE REST OF IT. I WILL ALLOW A QUICK PET, SOMETIMES, BUT I REALLY HATE IT WHEN THE FIRST THING OUT OF A PERSON'S MOUTH IS "WHAT'S YOUR DOG'S NAME." AS IF THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW! IF THAT'S THEIR APPROACH, THEY *NEVER* GET TO SAY HI TO THE PUPPY.
I DON'T GIVE OUT HER NAME. DEPENDING ON WHAT SORT OF DAY I'M HAVING, I EITHER JUST SAY THAT SINCE SHE'S WORKING, SHE CAN'T VISIT, OR I GIVE THEM SOME OTHER NAME, NOT HER REAL ONE. THEN I AM QUIETLY AMUSED AT HOW STUPID THE PERSON SOUNDS, TRYING TO ENGAGE MY DOG, WHEN I KNOW SHE WON'T RESPOND TO THE NAME. LOL
YES, I'VE REMOVED HANDS, EVEN TINY TWO-YEAR-OLD HANDS, AND ONCE,A PARENT GOT MIFFED. WHERE DO THESE PEOPLE GET OFF, THINKING MY DOG IS HERE JUST TO ENTERTAIN THEIR KID?
I still disagree with you, Meglet.
I can travel quite fluidly with a cane, and feel that the training I've had in all kinds of different settings (rural, city, you name it) is what has given me the tools to do so.
also, I will continue to undermine the bond between animal and human, whether guide dog, or pet.
I've already stated my reasons why. however, more power to those who feel differently than I do. I'm not raining on anyone's parade.
I cannot with all intellectual honesty disagree with guide dogs users. I'm a life long cane user, though I've never been to the tribal headquarters clled training centers and so I don't bow to the cane as a totem five times a day. Nor have I burned a sacrificial puppy to it. Cane religion is silly, if comically phallic in nature. I've seen dog guide users do things in snow, yes, deep snow, that users without canes can do.
Then again, I've seen a mascot professional St. Bernard do things in snow its human owner could not also.
I don't really bond with animals. But undermine that bond? Really? How ridiculous can we be? I've seen rescue and other dogs, even heard war vets talk about dogs on the front lines, where the bond was very important. I'm not much for bonding with lower life forms, so I am not one who should ever have one of these. But knowing what I know of other groups who use professional dogs, I'm last in line to undermine anything the guide dog users are doing, or totemizing my use of a cane, as comically phallic as that is.
I like the security precaution of not giving anyone your dog's name. I know some whose dogs only take commands in a different language for that reason.
I, like some others in the rescue community, do have to wonder about the crossover between guide dog handlers and others. It would be hard for someone to manage two dogs, I suppose, but I wonder if a dog guide handler would be a superior rescue or drug dog handler. Someone I know brought this up and asked me about that, for which I don't know since I don't have a dog.
Anyway, I kno it's tough for the dogmatic, but it is possible to acknowledge the fluidity of one tool while using another. I, for one, have never heard someone drive a stick shift and claim it works more fluidly than an automatic. that would be silly. Maybe they prefer it, but they don't refer to their Drivers' Ed or anything, and they're not bowing before the almighty stick. Sorry, I know this is just a bit of a back and forth dogma thing but maybe I've just got an active imagination but I find the whole defense of the cane totally ridiculous. This coming from a lifelong cane user, who will continue to be a cane user unless another non-life-form method comes out which is superior. Then I'd put away the stick and use the new thing, just as our great grandparents put away the horse and buggy in favor of the "horseless carriage." That doesn't mean I'm iontellectually dishonest about what a dog can do.
I was shocked when a dog guide user followed me through noisy streets, racing trains, so much sound I could not even hear her behind me except when she called out, "You can keep going, I'm still here!" You or I could not do that using a cane. No matter what Church of Appliantology you attended to be well versed in totemizing it, or how much time you spent actually using it.
I was simply floored by how it stayed with me, though we were navigating crowds, somewhat drunken crowds also, and you never had to say a word. Presumably she did. How did it know, for instance, which person was me? If she pointed at me, I was standing in a crowded bus shelter. How did it know she didn't mean someone next to me?
A cane user would have needed to grab a meat hook and not let go to get through the crowd and noise. That's just one instance. As I said, snow is definitely another one. I do know how to travel in snow and have done it for quite a while, but that doesn't mean a dog could not do better.
I would personally miss some of the landmark type things like seeing where the grass ends and dirt starts, those types of little things that you use, but I imagine it all gets compensated for.
Again, it's possible to be a rationalist and be intellectually honest enough to not use a dog but still acknowledge its fluidity and strengths. Some of you all act like it's a competition, like Christians vs. Muslims, or some other ridiculous wetting contest.
Thanks Kate, Raven, and those who are dog guide users for educating me more and more about this topic. I still stick to my opinions, but I do realize you guys outweigh me when it comes to the facts, experience, and firsthand knowledge. I haven't gotten a chance to work with a guide dog. I'm not sure if I would be allowed to try working with my friend's dog to see what it's like, but it wouldn't surprise me if I can't. I still feel as though, even though you are the one in control when you have a dog, you still have to trust the dog. I have always had confidence in my abilities with the cane. I have never gotten in to a serious accident/dangerous situation because of my wrong doing.
I don't mean to come across as a cane warshipper, regardless of wanting to be an O&M instructor, plus on top of that going to the God Forbidden NFB conventions for my own reasons, not to support the political extremist nonsense. But if that's how you view me, so be it. I won't lose sleep over the fact that you don't want to associate with me, and the fact that you don't agree with me.
I'd be surprised if in your studies to become an O&M instructor you weren't given some exposure to dogs, like getting to use one for a bit. Sort of like people who train truckers to get their CDL license may have a preference for double trailers but have at least tried a triple, in those states that allow it.
I don't think the NFB factors into this, because they have dogs also, from what I have heard. At least some of them do.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Leo. I won't see cane travel misrepresented, which is why I bothered to respond to Kate's post back there, but I have no illusions about it either. I use a cane because I'm good at it and I prefer it, but there's no dogma in that. It works for me, and even if it didn't work for a single other person on the planet, that wouldn't bother me. I'm not trying to convert anyone to the cane-travel religion. It should be said, in all fairness, that some dog guide handlers I've known do seem to see dog travel as a sort of religion--once you try it you'll never go back and all--and I don't hold with that either. Use what works for you, and if you bond with your guide in the process, more power to you. I'm an animal lover and can completely understand that bond, without actually wanting it for myself.
Indeed, I have always used a cane and have no desire to use a dog.
Thank you, Meglet and Leo. You said most of what I wanted to say.
Chelsea, to address you directly, I'm going to take apart the fluidity angle you keep going on about.
Fluidity is, in this context, a mode of smooth, uninterrupted travel from one place to the next. Examples of fluidity of travel would include navigating around objects without bashing them, arrowing straight for doorways in the sides of large buildings, being able to cross streets without having to stop and listen for traffic patterns, finding specific landmark objects with little to no fumbling, and maintaining a reasonable pace in noisy or distracting environments. And never mind following people through said noisy environments, which is another perk.
Your cane cannot help you do any of these things, not really. If you go to the same building every day you may get used to where the door is and will know exactly when to turn. Same with landmarks you see every day. But in day-to-day travel, particularly in new areas, your cane will do as it's designed to do, and it'll hit stuff, and you'll correct.
There is nothing wrong with this. I'm a cane user, and there is nothing to be taken away from us because we have to touch what we wish to avoid in many cases. The cane is, ideally at least, doing what it's meant to do very well. But it does not give us fluidity. It can be accurate, it can lend confidence, it can be the best tool for you in a given scenario or under your own personal circumstances, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you are simply not going to be as reactive, as intuitive, as a dog user in most cases. Best just accept that and get on with life.
I personally don't see cane travel as clunky, so I can respectfully disagree with those like Kate who find it so for themselves. I cannot, however, argue that the cane is actually better than the dog overall. I don't want to bring this back up again. No dogma on this end, especially not fallic dogma.
Greg, I know what fluidity means, thank you very much.
and, I still argue that, in attending a 9 month training center, one can learn to get around a lot of those humps you speak of.
I'm not saying that a person will never encounter them, but when he or she does, it'll be to a lesser extent than if they didn't have proficient cane skills.
while I understand some people feel they bond better with animals than humans, or that animals are better companions over all, I completely disagree.
thank you for your last post, Ryan. you said what I was coming here to say.
So you're claiming a training center can somehow teach you to find doorways for the first time perfectly without seeing them or feeling for them with your cane or listening for them? It can teach you how to go around obstacles your cane isn't even touching? You can follow people in a horrendously noisy environment without touching or hearing them? I gotta find me one of those because I'm clearly missing out.
To clarify the thrust of my last post: most of the time, a cane has to hit something for it to give you information. It glides along a surface to give you tactile feedback, it taps the ground to provide echoes, it bumps, even gently, against a shoreline of grass or a doorway, or a post so you know to go around it. This is fine, and it works well, and it's not all that awkward. But it simply isn't as fluid as guide dog travel; I don't see how it could be, logically. Not saying cane travel can't be smooth, and skills are very important, as Chelsea is saying. But you can't get around the fact that cane travelers are going to be more hands-on with their environments, and therefore less fluid and smooth.
That's actually what I'm trying to say here. Cane travel can be very independent, can be quite quick and accurate as well. Also, you may know tons about your environment and may not be easily daunted. That's cool. But that doesn't make you a fluid traveller. You are trusting your reactions to the things your cane hitss, which by their nature will be delayed or will break your stride even that shortest bit. The dog will, by contrast, often react on the fly and get you around things in your way without you having to hit them. So from a purely technical standpoint, this fluidity thing realy isn't even contestible.
Chelsea, I don't believe anyone has said that bonding with an animal is better than bonding with a human, or that animals make better companions. The point I made was that the bond between dog and its handler is very different from any human/human bond. But for people to call it a supposed bond is just foolish. When I hear "supposed," it leads me to believe that the poster is denying the strength and reality of a bond or true bond between a dog and its handler. When there is a bond, it is very strong and very real, and this is a fact that has been proven in many ways. To deny this is to believe falsely.
Also, the idea of fluidity is not contestable. Cane travel is less fluid. Flat out.
Ryan, I would think that as an O&M instructor, that you would work with people who have guide dogs unless you plan on providing mobility training to children only. And even then, there is a school that provides guide dogs to children 11-17, so you still might encounter a client who is a guide dog traveler.
I wonder if the amount of attention a blind person gets or doesn't is not about which travel tool they use but how they carry themselves or even how they look, even if the attention isn't about you? For example, if you were a particularly good-looking person, would it be more or less likely random people would want to interact with you or is it more about how lost and pathetic you might seem, or do people even notice how you look at all.
of course you hit things with a cane. I'm not denying that.
that's just it, though, I don't carelessly bump into things, fumble over things, or bang into things like I don't know what I'm doing, which, I feel, is what some of you are making cane travel sound like.
yes, I'm saying that the center I went to made me a hell of a better cane traveler than I ever would've otherwise been. I'm sure Ryan would say the same for himself.
True Leo and Raven. When I experience training with a dog I will be able to say more on that matter.
I don't see what the big deal is though, when it comes to tapping things with your cane. The way some of you are phrasing what you're saying, using the words like bashing and clunking around, it makes it seem like maybe you are using the cane a bit too wildly. You don't need to over-exaggerate with the cane, otherwise it could irritate someone or end up being broken. If someone has a problem with me coming in to contact with something of theirs with my cane, tough shit. They have every rite to move that object out of a public area.
This is unrealistic though, because the world does not adapt to the blind. Therefore getting irritated with a blind person because they are trying to find a doorway and tapping the wall is stupid. We don't get mad at sighted people when they slow down to look at signs.
I don't want to drag out this argument, because everyone prefers either the dog or the cane. We will always stick to what works for us even if we are told several times that the dog has more benefits than the cane, if that's how you view it so be it. I just wanted to try and clear up a misconception about using the cane. You don't have to crack a wall or tap aggressively to hear an echo.
Chelsea you are as defensive here as a fundamentalist Christian. You're straying wildly from your supposed critical thinking skills brought on by atheism. Nobody has said anything about incompetence. It's been more of a logic-based argument. You continue to refer to centers and skills and presumption of bad technique, just like Fundamentalist Christianity or the Law of Attraction does - mainly wishful thinking.
Nobody has ever said your skill set was good or bad. I mean c'mon. You know a stick shift with a clutch, with, as you say, proper education, can be driven just fine. That's all people had for years. I know when I was growing up, there were parents as dogmatic about stick shifts as you are about canes. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that an automatic doesn't stall, you don't have the same complications when starting on a hill, etc. etc. An automatic is simply more fluid, and that is not to say a stick shift crashes into things. After all, the human driver is still the driver. You are, after all, top of the evolutionary chain.
Nobody except you has said anything about a bond with an animal being better than a human. I have mainly had a working team described to me as a finely oiled machine, admittedly one that takes frequent tuning. A marine and his rifle can be said to be bonded, too: he knows how to field service it in pitch darkness (no nine months center and no so-called skills needed), he knows how to repair and use it reflexively. But no marine I have talked to ever said it was better than a bond with a human. It's an important bond, but not a bond with a human.
Try putting away the religion-style defenses and enjoy the clarity of intellectual honesty. You won't switch tools, I imagine. I certainly haven't for a plethora of reasons, some pragmatic and some overtly selfish. But I at least have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Near top on my list for never getting a dog? Somewhere under the landmarks issue and not being one who bonds with lower life forms? I'm selfish: I just raised a kid. Why would I want to again saddle myself with a ton of vet bills, high maintenance and other aspects dog users of all types contend with?
Oh and by dog users of all types? That includes the runners in Alaska I know who still are used to transport supplies and gear to remote locations. And yes, they also talk about a bond with a team of animals. That doesn't mean ooey gooey doggie worshipers who live in Portland and prostrate themselves in a ridiculous and self-effacing manner in front of any strange dog they find. Teams I have know are professional people, understand their animals and what they can expect of them and what they need to keep everything in top shape.
Thank you, Leo. You said basically what I was thinking. I'd actually written out a post before class, but the daily backups hit and I lost it, so I had to jet before I could rewrite.
No one's knocking your skillset. Fluid does not equal good. Fluidity is its own thing, and the sooner you accept that where fluidity alone is concerned the guide dog is going to give superior results, the better off you'll be. Based on this topic, the thread about people with overprotective parents and others, it seems as if you have an inordinate amount of trouble yielding anything to anyone at any time for any reason, as far as things that might (just might) make you look even a tiny bit weak. I can speak only for myself definitively here, but I don't really much care if you're weak or not, as I don't know you well enough. In fact, I doubt you're a weak person with a very flimsy skillset. You're probably a really excellent cane traveller with a lot of skills, and the sort of person who learns really well from past mistakes and who doesn't wallow. That's all well and good, but it's as leo pointed out; you cling to things without rationalism, particularly if giving up or conceding a point would, even for a second, make you appear less than you appeared before the concession. We're not vultures, Chelsea, and we aren't collectively waiting to tear you apart.
As far as the bond between dog and human...well, the only thing I'll say on it is that some guide dog owners - not all, by any means - will carry on about it as if it's a great big life-changing deal, something next door to sacred that should send any sane blind person without a guide dog scrambling for the nearest training school. I disagree with this more extreme view, but I cannot discredit the fact that bonds between human and canine do exist in many walks of life, to the mutual enjoyment and betterment of all directly involved.
Only problem with canes is, they won't find those big overhanging tree branches before your head finds them, or before your cane finds the trunk.
I actually get the fluidity argument and will, I think, concede it provided a near-ideal guide dog/human team. I've seen enough of them to know that there is probably just a bit more uninterrupted flow in the way a team will travel versus the sometimes stop-and-go method that cane travel might involve. And in all honesty, I'm pretty damned good with a cane if I do say so myself, but there are gunna be times that because I have to do all the work and thinking myself because that's what cane travel involves, I'm gunna be confronted with situations that don't fit the rules I've devised. . I know because it's already happened. Doesn't mean I'm changing my method of travel because the vast majority of the time, a cane works extremely well for me. I like the convenience and frankly, I'm somewhat aloof by nature until I get to know someone, and guide dog users, from my observations, are more likely to receive what to me would be unwanted attention. I like dogs, and my family has owned one or two tremendous ones, but by nature I'm a cat person, so if I'm gunna bond with an animal form, it'll be a cat. Besides, the vast majority of the time, people pretty much mind their own business where I'm concerned, leaving me to my own devices. Proportionally speaking, this is far more the case than not. Besides, unapologetically, I have to say I like holding onto that somewhat phalic-shaped golf grip even if it reminds me of what I'm not getting right now (smile).
Nor will your cane find those mirrors that stick out a foot from the van or truck. Sure you could walk with your free hand held out in front of your face (and in fact I had a teacher try to teach me that), but that'snot always reliable either.
If I could wear a visor that would just alert me to all upcoming obstacles like that how convenient that would be. Maybe if not in my lifetime, it'll be in one of you guys's.
Case in point, we're offloading some of our household things in preparation to move here in a couple months. We went to the daughter's house with a trunkload of gear. I unloaded and was carrying stuff in both hands, not using a cane for obvious mechanical reasons. Had I some sort of visor that would have been managed a lot more easily, I'll tell you that. Around corners, up stairs, into the apartment building, etc. Of course there are ways around things, you can have a sighted but less physically strong human guide you from behind and that often works.
I have even heard of canes with adjunct hardware that would be usable to let you know of the overhanging tree branches, street signs, etc. I have the dents and scars to prove how effective a cane is against such things.
Of course the religious among us will come out and blame the user of the tool, against the original sin of bad technique, notwithstanding most tools we use today have some forms of fault tolerance. but fault tolerance is uniquely absent from zealots.
I'm glad you all feel I care whether you see me as weak or not, but quite frankly, as Cody often puts it, I don't give two shits about it.
I have strong opinions, and it's clear that here, most of you can't stand the way I push them. however, as Cody has said in other topics, if people actually listened to what we said the first or second time around, and didn't constantly come back with the same stuff, we wouldn't have to be pushy.
that's obviously another thing you all will never grasp, but I had to say it anyway.
back to the topic, though, well said, Ryan. no one will ever change anyone's mind, so going back and forth, repeating the same things, is pointless.
glad someone else agrees with me about most people using the terms they do, regarding the clunkiness of the cane, which is exactly why I keep bringing up the point about attending a training center.
I'm not, and never have said that everyone should drop their life to go to one. I was simply saying that, for me, if I hadn't gone to one, I'd definitely be the kinda cane traveler that many here are referencing.
Chelsea, it's fine to have strong opinions, but remember that you have to back those up; if you put yourself out there bluntly, expect to be questioned, expect to have to explain yourself, and expect to have to justify your argument with more than just "well, people don't like my blunt opinions, so they disagree with me". Try considering that people disagree with you, not because they can't handle your opinions or your strength, but rather because they actually have a valid point and want to know why you believe what you do. Cody may complain about his opinions and peoples' response to them, but at least he makes a real effort to back them up, and usually does so both effectively and extensively. All you've done, by contrast, is mention something vague about training centers, and then complained about how you have strong opinions and how we're just coming at you with the same stuff over and over. But if you actually read our posts, Chelsea, you may notice that many of us (experienced cane travelers in most cases) have used examples and logic, whereas all you've done is told us your opinion without actually explaining why you possess it in the first place. It's fine not to care what we think Chelsea; I don't much care what you think, either. But if I put a strong opinion out there, I expect to have to defend it. This is why Leo is saying you seem religious about cane travel: when people ask you about your belief or opinion, you don't actually justify it; you deflect from the point and claim that your bluntness is what people object to, not your actual statements. That's dogmatic behavior. Frankly, I'm getting incredibly sick of people using deflection to get away with making really strong statements and then not backing them up. Sometimes, it's okay to admit you're wrong.
Maybe I am old-fashioned and in this way traditional masculine - not your macho hot blood type: But I am impressed with the stoic confidence that comes from the self-possessed. What this means is, blunt is not always a free ticket to validation, any more than doormat is a free ticket to peace or safety.
Meglet's right: you've said the only reason we haven't supported your anecdotal claims has been because we can't handle your approach. Frankly she's right and you're completely wrong. Blunt or dogmatic, or even whipped pushover, all mean absolutely nothing without substance.
If you actually read many of our posts, we will at the same time admit we're lifelong cane users, but be intellectually honest enough to admit the fluidity of using a dog or other tool for a guide.
You use Cody as an example. If cody were here, he also would disagree with you on these points, and not because he is not blunt. Cody can handle blunt.
But blunt does not equal confidence, even strong opinions do not equal confidence. In fact, most of the time you see these things in the most insecure. The McGivers of the world may be unnoticed by many, but their confidence comes from their resourcefulness and abilities to get things done in a meaningful way, without the trappings of opinions and dogmas.
People look at a Churchill, and think he exuded great confidence in his public speeches. In reality, his confidence was really apparent when he was stewing in his study over how he was going to manage the war effort, deciding whether or not to leave London Proper to protect himself and the country's strategy, while leaving countless thousands under a city pelted with bombs. In all that confidence, you don't hear about blunt or dogma or opinion. I just picked Churchill out of the hat, but you can make that statement about anyone who has been influentially confident to the world at large, not just target small niche groups that run centers.
People make a huge deal out of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream" speech. But we wouldn't even know about that speech, or care, had he not responded in his letters from Birmingham Jail, met with the mayor of Chicago to privately discuss the plight of impoverished African-Americans in the slums. History, modern and ancient, is full of real confident people who were really influential. And I dare anyone to find me someone whose worldwide influence was the product of their being blunt or having strong opinions.
At risk of monopolizing this topic, one more example of true confidence:
The freed slaves of the American South in the 1860s.
These were people who lived in appalling conditions, in some cases on nothing other than corn meal mush with the occasional brisket thrown in.
What's amazing, and often missed, about the African American story is that they did not come out victims, or dogmatists, or zealots, or, as you call it now, blunt. They came out of slavery and instead went to work in local governments, factories and other establishments. Conditions oftentimes were scarcely better than their previous slave conditions. Jim Crow and his gang of hoodlums would not have been scared by blunt, and wouldn't have wasted Saturday nights lynching blunts. They were scared of the stoic and self-possessed unbroken confidence. These people backed up what they had to say with writing that would put most of us, myself included, to shame today. And this coming from an environment where they could not legally learn to read or write.
It is in this context that I cannot see outward displays or bluntness as a sign of either confidence or having it together. No more than I see a youth flexing his muscles as a sign of the stalwart disposition that is manhood.
Leo, and especially Meglet, are dead on. You are preaching what you claim to abhore. Don't expect to make an outlandish statement and have it stand untouched if you yourself would immediately attack a similarly outlandish statement from someone else. And you have, so don't try to hide behind a false pretense.
You don't like being caught up in a mistake. That's about as clear as can be. I don't either.
The main difference between you, and people like Leo and Meglet and myself (not to mention others) is that we are all right with saying, "Okay yeah, maybe I was a bit off there". You can't give even an inch, or won't. And that's fine. You don't have to. But don't expect to be taken seriously when you use such double standards. I feel totally okay now with dismissing any correction or objection from you out of hand, because you do likewise. Since you do object and criticize a great deal, I have to wonder how effective your strategy is. I hope you like living in a bubble where yours is the only opinion with weight, because that's what you're heading for. People who realize you're dogmatic are going to stop taking you seriously, and when they do that, then your very real and often well-articulated disagreements will lose any sort of weight they might have had. Sad but true. I can't count how many times a good idea is dismissed out of hand because the person speaking it has damned themselves. People shouldn't be that way, but they are.
For what it's worth, I'm glad that this training center of yours helped you become better with mobility. Not being able to get places sucks...someone like DomesticGoddess probably knows it better than anyone. So you took that option and empowered yourself. Good going. Just remember your limitations. No one's trying to tell you a guide dog is better for you.
I don't think anyone is depicting the cane user that constantly goes around hitting things. The fact of the matter is that cane traveling is clunkier and more disrupted than guide dog travel. Guide dog travelers generally don't have to find things first in order to find ways around them, and we don't have to worry as much about shore-lining. Tactile feedback is also not as important. We still use it, but here in Michigan, when the ground is blanketed in inches of snow, much of my tactile feedback is gone, and because of my dog, I personally am able to get around much better than I could in the winter with a cane. Because of those things, guide dog travel is more fluid.
It's great that people have gone to training centers to learn how to get all they can out of their cane and their environment, and to expand their own abilities, but the cane is not a better mobility aid. The cane has advantages over a dog, especially for those who are not emotionally or financially equipped, or confident, responsible, or patient enough to handle a guide dog. Too, certain lifestyles are not suitable for traveling or working with a guide dog, but that doesn't mean that the cane is a better mobility aid.
I would not say that a dog is for everyone, or that every cane user should drop the stick and pick up a harness. That would be foolish. A dog is a responsibility--another life to preserve, protect, and care for, and another being to please. Everyone can't or doesn't want to handle that.
I’ve been trying to mull over some thoughts about this discussion, and the best I’ve been able to come up with is that we’re never gunna actually solve the issue of which mobility aid – the dog or the cane -- is better. Because we’re blind, we have to use one or the other, and for various and sundry reasons, the one is better than the other depending on our personalities, our lifestyles and perhaps even our own abilities. Each individual blind person, though, has to determine which one is better for themselves. And because we’re blind and don’t have the same luxury that the sighted have of being left alone, we’re likely to get unwanted attention from strangers no matter which mobility tool we use. That said, the OP does bring up a question I have. To wit, let’s assume you’re as optimum a traveler as you can be with either tool. And I’m assuming the OP is either an optimum traveler or as close to that as possible. Which mobility aid, assuming you use it to the maximum effect, is gunna cause the least amount of unwanted attention from the general public – the cane or the dog? I’ve only been a cane traveler, and like I said, I think I’m a pretty damned good one at that. I also acknowledge that there are times when I have to deal with my share of stupidity, but objectively speaking, I have to say that throughout most of my day, people generally leave me to my own devices, and I like that. So, to those of you who have used both and used them as effectively as you think you can, do you get more unwanted attention from using the dog or the cane? Maybe there’s no perfect answer here either, but I am curious. Obviously I have my own thoughts, but I’d like to hear from others.
the attention I get having a dog is honestly the worst part of the whole thing. I understand when people ask questions but when they just come up to me and start stroking her it pisses me off so much. Half the time they act like I'm not even there and just fuck about with my dog like it doesn't matter, waste of my time. I think the staff at college here are a lot worse than the students, they act like I don't have the right to tell them to leave my dog alone because I'm a student.
Interesting. I wonder is this something you think you can tolerate because of the relative advantages you find in having a dog, or is it worth giving up the dog for the right to be left alone? Again, I ask this because the only experience I’ve had with guide dogs has always been through other users. Just recently a friend of mine at work had a dog for a while but gave it up because he found it was too much trouble. But then, he’s a high partial, so I wonder at the wisdom of having a dog in those circumstances. Still another person I know at work is getting a dog because she’s losing more of her sight now and doesn’t seem to have a great deal of confidence in her cane abilities. Which leads me to the question of whether there are more dog users among the adventitiously blinded versus ones like myself who have always been blind. I ask because I don’t know, but it does seem to me that this is the case. And your post brings up yet another pet peave of mine. Why is it that as blind people we’re the proverbial bitches when we stand up for ourselves, or try to? Even when we’re doing it in a relatively nice way because we don’t want to be painted as the stereotypical bitter blind person, we get shit from people who accuse us of having bad attitudes.
Wow, I just lost everything I just wrote......
In a nutshell.
I respect everyone's right to choose whatever mode of navigation suits them, whether dog or cane. Fine. Personally, a doggy works best for me, but there are definitely benefits to a cane as well, and I can accept and even embrace that. However, I don't like how some of you undermine the bond I and others share with our dogs. You write it off as something inferior, even if that is not your intention, and I take offense to that. Yes, my bond with my dog has absolutely changed my life. The love and trust we share is something that my words are not good enough to describe right now. And it is ok for people to not want that bond, or even to not care that I have it, or that others have it, but to just blatantly disrespect us isn't fair because, speaking for myself, I wouldn't do that to you. So please don't do that to me.
And to answer the previous poster's question, it depends on your setting, in terms of the unwanted attention you get. As a cane user - and yes, that was in high school, with immature teenagers - I got an enormous amount of unwanted attention: jokes, comments, pranks, whispers, ridiculous questions. With a dog, I still get some of that, but when I'm really going in my stride with her, and we are focused, nothing breaks that, and often people can see that and do not mess with it. I have been approached sometimes by people who tell me they saw me earlier but didn't want to say anything because I seemed so focused with my dog. While that isn't necessarily desirable either, it kind of goes to show that just because I have a dog doesn't mean that people are grabbing and pulling at her every second of the day. It does happen, of course, and especially around kids, but it really depends on your setting, the people you are around, and your discipline regime. Hope that kind of answers your question.
I completely understand why you'd not want your bond with your dog to be undermined, but please keep in mind that a good group of the cane users who have posted here have only said that we wouldn't necessarily want that bond for ourselves; only a few have actually spoken against the bond, and at least one of those individuals was criticized by more cane users than dog users. I think you'll find that most of us get where you're coming from. I know I do.
Also, keep in mind that people get unwanted attention in high school for all kinds of silly things, like being a little overweight, having red hair, failing to wear the same kind of clothes as everyone else, etc. It's not a good representation of the world at large. Unwanted attention you got in high school may have little to no bearing on what you go through in the real world. I hardly get any attention at all with my cane besides the occasional stare I can't see or offer of help that I generally appreciate.
I don't think anyone can say either a dog or a cane is better, it really is so individual. I know very independent guide dog owners and cane users and likewise for people who aren't independent. So I would say getting a dog doesn't mean anything as far as having better mobility is concerned. Personally I get a lot more unwanted attention working a guide dog, having a cane people might ask me questions about being blind or if I wanted help, but not all the time. With a dog you get that as well as people who just like animals and want to talk about that.
Also, a dog is kind of like a baby in the sense that you have to look after it, so you've got to consider whether an environment is actually suitable for an animal. I'm not saying as a student you can't party, but you have to know that either someone is able to look after the dog or that you won't be leaving it for too long. For me that's something I never thought about before I got my dog, and it sometimes does mean I can't do things I want to.
I'm a good cane user and dog handler, and in all honesty I don't think getting a dog made me more independent because I was already, it's just a different way of getting around. A lot of it is to do with your motivation, if you really want to go somewhere you won't "need" to get a dog to do it.
And yeah, people do assume that if you tell them something you are being a bitch. I have a lot of blind friends who let everyone play with their dogs and that’s totally their decision, but then they act like I’m really mean for telling people they can’t stroke my dog. When she’s not in harness, like when we’re at home it’s fine, but if I’m working her I really need her to be able to focus. I’ve also had criticism from sighted people too, so it’s not just blind people. I don’t think people mean it in a bad way, they just don’t understand how necessary it is for a dog to be able to concentrate when it’s working.
Personally having a dog has been quite challenging for me, I really don’t like the attention I get at all, there are times when I feel really overwhelmed by it, especially when we get surrounded by people. So the problem for me isn’t whether a dog is a good way of getting around but if I want to deal with everything that goes along with having one in the future. I was very happy using a cane, just wanted to try out something different, so I see the value of both but although my dog is great I think I'll probably use a cane when she retires.
I like what the last poster said.
although I've had limited experience using a guide dog, I felt I got more unwanted attention from doing so, more than is the case as a cane user.
Yup. Canes are not soft and fluffy.
It strikes me that this is the chief drawback of having a guide dog. People see the dog and forget that it is a guide first. Little kids are bad enough, but adults should know better, and they still don't.
I don't see this changing any time soon either, as service dog handlers complain about this also. Go to a store? Clerk wants to talk to the dog.
Stop a couple of young fools from playing with boating tackle on the docks? They laugh and point at the dog, (until properly assisted in stopping what they were doing). Definitely not a guide thing, but a professional dog thing, and people just can't seem to properly control themselves apparently. Only guide dog users have to deal with it more often since their dog doesn't just come out for a few hours of work, but is out all the time. This has to be tough.